[00:00:00] Sebastian: You're listening to the Insightful Connections podcast. Our guest today is Izzy Parashos. Izzy is a lead insights consultant at Xero. Founded in 2006, Xero is the global small business platform that helps customers supercharge their business. Prior to working at Xero, Izzy was a consultant at C-Space and a senior research executive at Harris Interactive. She's worked out of offices in Australia, the UK, and most recently the US, conducting research on every continent in the meantime. Izzy is a Green Book Futurist honoree and was named in Significant Insights 30 under 30 in 2023. Izzy, first of all, congratulations. Second, thanks for being on the podcast today.

[00:00:36] Izzy: No problem. It's my pleasure.

[00:00:39] Sebastian: Cool. So I love to start these conversations with this kind of context setting question. I'm wondering if you can tell me a little bit about how you ended up in market research to begin with, and how does that account for the places you've come in the years since?

[00:01:13] Izzy: Yeah, so it's a, a really interesting story actually. So I studied in Australia and I was studying marketing and psychology. And I remember during my end of year project, I ended up doing a presentation for a golf course. And I remember that the head of the marketing department mentioned to me that he thought that I would be really good at market research and I didn't really understand what that meant and then I was actually lucky enough with this in the back of my mind to meet someone who had their own market research agency and so when I was in my last year of university I was able to actually intern with him and a few of his other research friends that had gone and opened their own businesses and then when I was 23 and it's funny to look back on this. When I was 23, I didn't have a full-time job and I just finished studying and I was really interested in the idea of traveling. So I decided to do what every Australian does and get the two-year visa to move to the UK. And then when I was in the UK, I had no idea what I was doing. All I had was this kind of like research background and a few of these internships. So I just started to apply for different research agencies and that's how I landed at Harris. And then after Harris, I went to C-Space and then obviously I joined the client side when I joined Xero in, when was it? 2021. And so I have a bit of a different background in the sense of that I was like the only qual specialist in the team I was in at Harris. And then when I joined C-Space, I was one of the only people with like quantitative background. So I actually truly stayed mixed methods throughout and then obviously my time at Xero while I was focusing on segments to begin with, which is otherwise audience research, and then I expanded my remit into brand. I'm really lucky to have a wide variety of experience and my projects are very diverse both in terms of teams, stakeholders, and also methodologies. I've actually had a load of experience and as you touched on back in my past, I was lucky enough to work in loads different markets as well. Some of them I've had the pleasure of visiting since, like Germany and other European markets, but I've also had the opportunity to work on markets where I've never actually even set foot in. It's really interesting being able to have such a diverse portfolio of experiences. Most recently, I gave a talk at IIX in Amsterdam about empathy and how my career has really helped me build empathy for stakeholders, but customers and also myself. So it's great having the opportunity to talk through these things because you actually realize like how many experiences you've had that have really helped you shape your kind of thinking that you bring to your day-to-day job.

[00:04:11] Sebastian: And it was this year that you were added to the green book future list. Is that right?

[00:04:15] Izzy: Yes. Yes, it was.

[00:04:17] Sebastian: You know, you're always in a good place when you have to remember what year, which accolade is in, right? So yeah, congrats on that one. One question that I have building on that really diverse history that has taken you both, you know, in the agency context through qualitative and quantitative focuses, and then moving into more of a brand side role, you've really occupied a lot of the different positions that exist in market research broadly. and I think you have a very broad base. Moving between all of those different spaces and those specialties, is there a single insight that pops out from having made those transitions between those very sort of diverse roles? What are some of the common themes of working in this space that you've teased out through the years that you've been working here?

[00:05:01] Izzy: I think the biggest learning that I've had throughout my career is that everyone you interact with is a whole person in and of themselves. One of my favorite feelings is when I'm on the subway and I look around the car and all of these people have full lives in and of themselves. To some that may make you feel insignificant, but to me it makes me feel excited that you never know who you're going to meet, what you're going to learn or what you're going to come across. That I think is the beauty of actually being in research because you get to know other people, sometimes in ways that you wouldn't expect. But it's really nice to have different touch points about people's experiences. And that goes across so many different things. So like that's different cultures. It's also hierarchies within business, like no matter what level you are, fundamentally you are a person with your own like wants, needs, desires, hardships. think that's the biggest thing that you should keep in context when you're talking to different people is the fact that they may have a completely different learned and lived experience, but they're still just a person. And I find that to be really grounding actually.

[00:06:15] Sebastian: Just prior to recording this episode, I was recording an episode with Nithi Kumar, who's one of the global leads at CX at Kantar. And he had this great line, customer experience puts heart back into business. And I think maybe that's true of research generally, right? It's about that sort of emphasis and focus on the human that the business touches.

[00:06:34] Izzy: Absolutely. I would definitely agree with that.

[00:06:37] Sebastian: So I have a question for you. And this arises from a conversation that we had, I think a week, maybe two weeks ago, a bit of a provocative question. Is there such a thing as too much research? And what does that look like?

[00:06:49] Izzy: I've been having a big, long, hard thing since we originally spoke about this. And I think If I say, is there such a thing as too much research, maybe is the better question actually, are we researching the right things? That is probably the reframe. I'm a bit of a fan of a Venn diagram, if anyone's ever seen me speak or present. I was really thinking that on one hand, you have the very, very strategic, big picture, white space, blue sky thinking questions. On the other side, you have the very, very fast tactical decisions, maybe a little bit, I would say, in the minutia of the detail. And then you have that kind of messy middle where it's like, you know you need to make a change and you need to identify which change will have the least negative impact or the most positive impact. It can be framed in two kind of ways. So I think that, is there such a thing as too much research? We may spend too much time on on the minutiae side and we should kind of move up a funnel into the more strategic or the more decisive research elements. But that's not to say that there's too much research in the world, I think it just needs to be a bit refocused.

[00:08:03] Sebastian: So what does that refocus look like to you?

[00:08:06] Izzy: I would say that, especially with the kind of tech movements that we're seeing and the iterations and how quickly the industry is changing, I would say that platforms that are run by AI or the more synthesis elements of it are going to allow us greater efficiencies to think about those more strategic questions that have higher impact in the business. I think it's a really interesting space where, and I hear this from a lot of my client friends as well, businesses are sitting on so, so much information. So do questions and research projects always need to be net new, or can they actually be fueled by the insights that we already have within the business? And again, that kind of just frees us up for higher-level thinking. You don't need to start from ground zero every time, and especially if the business has been around for a while or they're really research-hungry or very customer-centric, there's definitely going to be some form of base of insights that you can build on.

[00:09:11] Sebastian: I'm curious how your definition of the right research or the things that make sense to focus on at more of a strategic level versus an executional level have shifted over the course of your own career in insights and how the emergence of technology has played into that.

[00:09:31] Izzy: I think that there's some areas of research that will never go away. You're always going to need to talk to real people. So one of those areas that I think of when it comes to thought leadership pieces and white papers, I can't personally see a world where, unless it's about AI or a kind of interview test case study that people are going to put out like a white paper that's not based on talking to any form of human. So I don't think that kind of thing is going to go away, but I would say over the course of my career, I've really seen a movement from, and you see this in the different businesses that are being launched and all of the kind of new tech that's coming out, like stepping away from traditional brand trackers, for example, like that's one of the biggest tech innovations that I continue to see are these shorter format, different sourced brand trackers and smaller survey platforms. The other piece that I see a lot of people leaning into is that more synthesis piece. So no more do we need to test messaging to the same degree, but actually we can start using synthesis of different CVPs we've run or different messaging. I think the biggest thing as well, and I don't know if this is because I've moved client side and now I have a more broad knowledge and understanding of the different tools that are available, but elements like you can A, B test messaging in market. You no longer need to make everything customer facing and test it in research. You can do it in the initial phases, but once you start getting into, is this word better than this word, you don't need to do a massive qualitative study anymore. You can really lean on like click-through rates and different testing. And again, I'm not sure if that's because I've just become more knowledgeable in alternatives or these are strengths that businesses are focusing on more now that tech is becoming more and more of a focus.

[00:11:37] Sebastian: On the one hand, we have these sorts of insights that businesses are capable of gleaning largely through the data that they themselves have, and it's increasingly abundant. And then that touches on some of this very tactical stuff that maybe, as you said, we don't need to start at ground zero to analyze. And where does research fit in to focus on the questions that are maybe more pertinent that we can't address with, you know, our existing data? What do you see as sort of the opportunity spaces that exist for suppliers in the industry to differentiate towards the more strategic questions that companies like Xero are facing?

[00:12:16] Izzy: Also interestingly, my ethos for how I approach research is very much spend more upfront time and monetary so you can move faster and spend less down funnel. So I think if you have your fundamental insight and you know it to be true, then the need to do the more and more iterative testing actually reduces. Because if you're building, say, a campaign, for example, or a product that's built on a customer need, obviously you can validate it as you start to refine it. But if it's based in universal truth, I personally believe it's hard to miss on your execution. And in terms of your question about how agencies can adapt and provide value, one thing I always really look for when I'm commissioning or talking to an agency is the ability to push back because obviously when you're in the minutia of the detail, of course everything really, really matters and you're actually looking for that third party independent view to say like, actually we've got nothing to do with the question you're asking or what you're looking at and it doesn't make sense or it doesn't really matter or actually the fundamental insight doesn't ring true. So are you focusing on the right areas? So I would say that in and above utilizing different tools to bring down costs and to make things faster, I think similar to how I would use these tools and operate is that it's really that thought leadership, the ability to push back and reframe is what I think is really going to be the selling point for different agencies, because the other thing, and again, I never know if it's my own ignorance, but when we started focusing on AI, I couldn't wrap my head around it. I don't mean it as a principle, but word clouds have been around since I was in university a decade ago, if I'm going to reveal, but that is AI. I really struggled with this, like, AI is going to change the industry, and so on and so forth, because it's important to keep abreast of the changes, but in some fundamental ways, It's always been there, and in other ways it's requiring a lot of experimentation to understand the use cases for how it can be useful, especially as we're still struggling to prove out if it's going to work in certain cases. So, yeah.

[00:14:50] Sebastian: So you're not hyperventilating over AI, like so many people on my LinkedIn feed?

[00:14:55] Izzy: I would say that I'm cautious, but I'm optimistic. I can definitely see how it's going to be helpful and we're running a bunch of experiments at the moment that I'm very, very excited about and that I can touch on. But that's not to say that I'm going to throw out all research that comes across my desk. We're definitely not there yet, but the tools are evolving really, really quickly. And I think what's more important is an educational piece about what they are good for and what they're not. And I feel that the industry, while everyone was running at pace about how exciting it was and everything was changing, now we're starting to get into the discourse a little bit more and more about like, okay, this is the future vision of where we're going, but we're not there yet. A good example is the other day I was trying to create a pivot table and I got feedback from Gemini that the spreadsheet had too many rows, but it could give me some initial insights. So I thought, yes, okay, that'll save me time. And then I said, yes, please give me these. And then Gemini spat back to say, but this spreadsheet is empty. So simultaneously it was too large and it was also empty. So there is base case that we probably need to take a step back, but I do think it's heading in the right direction.

[00:16:18] Sebastian: Sure, absolutely. I wanted to kind of circle back a little bit to your comment about one of the ways which an agency can provide a true signal of value is by pushing back where appropriate. And it actually takes me back to like a personal anecdote. Back when I was moderating for Ipsos, I ran a study that was a really short round of IDIs with a leading Canadian financial services company. And they wanted us to basically distill learnings from their top performing financial advisors for them to try and disseminate throughout the organization. And one of the things I found, you know, for this client was basically that your best performing financial advisors do this thing that other people aren't doing, where they will confront their clients about their stated preferences if they think they're unwise. And it's a signal that their concern for the client's well-being is high enough that they will do the uncomfortable and difficult thing in the moment. it, the easiest thing to do is always to be a sycophant and say, yes, great idea. Right. Like chat GPT style, you know, you're the man, right? Let's do it. But I think in life generally, even outside the insights industry, it can be the people who are willing to challenge your orthodoxy that actually care about you the most.

[00:17:35] Izzy: I subscribe to that principle. I think that majority, if not all of my coworkers would say that and my friends to, and like, the thing is, is that obviously you can give the feedback in a manner that's like, not the best, but I think, especially at work, if you're pushing something forward for the best outcome, then it will be received in a manner, if you present it neutrally, it will be received, it will be received. Maybe not well, but it will be received. I think that that is absolutely the case and like I'm always open to feedback and I'm always eager to learn what I can do better and how I can improve and alongside I think the ability to push back is the egoless nature of it as well. I love seeing things up front. I love seeing like the messy middle. It doesn't need to be perfect when it comes across my desk, but what I really look for is being prepared and being brought along the journey because it helps me better defend the insights if I need to. So it's kind of that egoless nature, the feedback loop, and the ability to be open and receptive to different points of view. And as much as I would love to always be right, I know that I'm not always right, and I look for partners that take on that same kind of ethos.

[00:19:07] Sebastian: So pivoting slightly, I wanted to ask you a little bit about research at Xero and how you see it evolving in the years ahead, and where does the idea of experimentation fit into that?

[00:19:18] Izzy: First, I would like to touch upon that we really have a very positive experimentation culture that's really supported by our exec level and then the CMO. really, really interested in understanding and learning. I think that's the biggest piece is learning. It doesn't always need to work, but what did we learn from it to hopefully make it work better or at least continue to evolve? So having a culture where failing is encouraged in a way is actually really, really uplifting. So that's the base. And I think that's a really important element because obviously if you're walking on eggshells and you're worried about being judged every time you do something or you're worried that your job is on the line, that can be incredibly anxiety-inducing. And so with that in mind, we partner with businesses such as Emporia on different research and experiments. So a few things that we're looking into that are really, really interesting, and I'm sure everyone who's listening to this has heard this all through the industry, is synthetic data and what that looks like in the different kind of models because, again, and I'm coming at this as like, I might sound completely uninformed, but you know, there's the digital twins element, which is like obviously iterative and adaptive based on people's answers. Then there's the kind of platforms that take your already existing information and then answer questions based on that. And I'm trying to understand the differences between the use cases like that. Also, then there's different kind of tooling techniques like AI moderated interviews, and then when you take actually those three elements together and then you kind of assess on price, say, for example, if we can talk to a lot of people at scale via AI for X amount, and then we talk to a quote-unquote made-up person for X amount, but the information is actually 90% similar, then is it worth dropping our investment in customer interviews and actually being built on insights that we already have existing in the business is enough? So those are the kind of questions that we're starting to ask ourselves in this new kind of experimentation culture. One of the biggest things I will say is that we are obviously a B2B company, and a big thing alongside actually AI and different kind of methodologies is data quality and how do we find the right people, how do we make sure that we're serving them the questions that the business needs but are also in a format that is most digestible to them. I touched at the beginning that brand tracking, for example, is one of the biggest things that's changing, and it's like, what does brand tracking look like now when people are time poor and hard to find? Is it actually 10 questions, just the brand health funnel with a verified audience, or is it these days of 20-minute surveys? I know which one I already prefer, just based on the kind of surface-level comparison, but these are things that we're also starting to think about, and again, it's one of those things that there are always going to be, of course, places where we can't drop talking to customers, but it's also about how do we make our customer channels more effective and a proxy for primary research. One case that comes to mind is social media comments. There's a wealth of data in there, so in what ways are we able to better utilize those comments quickly so that we're responding to them in a timely manner, but we're also able to synthesize and take the insights that they have. That's a perfect use case that I believe like 10 years ago when I started, sure, there was some social media monitoring tools, but now I think the scale of which they're able to synthesize and provide insights has far, far advanced.

[00:23:35] Sebastian: Izzy, one last question from me. What keeps you motivated?

[00:23:38] Izzy: I love solving hard problems with smart people, and I'm so blessed that Xero has some of the brightest minds in the industry. And with moving to the US, I've been able to meet so many inspiring people, and that's what makes me really, really excited.

[00:23:58] Sebastian: Izzy, thanks so much for being on the show today.

[00:24:00] Izzy: No problem. Thank you, Seb.

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